Comments on: What are we to make of the recent warnings about antioxidant supplements? http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/ A Good Look at Good Health Mon, 08 Sep 2008 14:49:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Maria http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-80943 Maria Tue, 29 Apr 2008 16:40:27 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-80943 Dear John I would like to comment on Patrick Holford who seems to be the voice of Nutritional Therapists. I didn't have any feelings for or against Holford until I heard him deliver the argument against this study on BBC Five Live. His lack of a well thought out argument made him appear unable to critically evaluate this piece of research. This inability enabled Bjelakovic to showcase his academic superiority. It was extremely embarrassing and I wish the BBC researchers would trawl around to find more academically savvy representatives for our profession. I appreciate your clarification on the subject and wish that you had had the opportunity to confront Bjelakovic while millions were listening. Dear John
I would like to comment on Patrick Holford who seems to be the voice of Nutritional Therapists. I didn’t have any feelings for or against Holford until I heard him deliver the argument against this study on BBC Five Live. His lack of a well thought out argument made him appear unable to critically evaluate this piece of research. This inability enabled Bjelakovic to showcase his academic superiority. It was extremely embarrassing and I wish the BBC researchers would trawl around to find more academically savvy representatives for our profession.

I appreciate your clarification on the subject and wish that you had had the opportunity to confront Bjelakovic while millions were listening.

]]> By: Dr Andrew Morrice http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79929 Dr Andrew Morrice Fri, 25 Apr 2008 20:38:25 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79929 Very very interesting stuff. It appears that the same tactics are being used against nutritional approaches as we are currently experiencing in the onslaught on homeopathy. In the case of the homeopathy, a very shady "meta-analysis" by Shand et al instigated an ongoing and still accelerating attack on homeopathy and CAM in general. The meta-analysis as originally designed showed homeopathy and conventional medicine working equally well. But then the authors went on to re-analyse a subset of data (they didn't even say which trials they used!) to show that homeopathy is "no better than placebo". Now they are calling for the closure of all NHS homeopathy services. Yes, indeed, there is a pattern here! Be prepared for an escalating rhetoric portraying nutritional therapy as useless, harmful and the province of quacks and cranks. Studies such as the one John analyses here will be continually reported as "showing that antioxidant supplements are harmful". The aim will be to make them unavailable to buy. The advantage that nutritional therapy has is that it has more plausibility within the bio-chemical paradigm - the bile and venom directed against homeopathy has to be experienced to be beleived. Get your rebuttals out early, clearly and repeatedly is my advice. Very very interesting stuff.

It appears that the same tactics are being used against nutritional approaches as we are currently experiencing in the onslaught on homeopathy.

In the case of the homeopathy, a very shady “meta-analysis” by Shand et al instigated an ongoing and still accelerating attack on homeopathy and CAM in general. The meta-analysis as originally designed showed homeopathy and conventional medicine working equally well. But then the authors went on to re-analyse a subset of data (they didn’t even say which trials they used!) to show that homeopathy is “no better than placebo”. Now they are calling for the closure of all NHS homeopathy services. Yes, indeed, there is a pattern here!

Be prepared for an escalating rhetoric portraying nutritional therapy as useless, harmful and the province of quacks and cranks. Studies such as the one John analyses here will be continually reported as “showing that antioxidant supplements are harmful”. The aim will be to make them unavailable to buy.

The advantage that nutritional therapy has is that it has more plausibility within the bio-chemical paradigm - the bile and venom directed against homeopathy has to be experienced to be beleived.

Get your rebuttals out early, clearly and repeatedly is my advice.

]]> By: Sally http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79914 Sally Fri, 25 Apr 2008 19:09:53 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79914 I share Peter's concerns and suspect that we'll be seeing more such reports in order to prime the general public to accept the new EU directives without challenge. For further details on this, please see the Alliance for Natural Health website: http://www.alliance-natural-health.org/. I share Peter’s concerns and suspect that we’ll be seeing more such reports in order to prime the general public to accept the new EU directives without challenge. For further details on this, please see the Alliance for Natural Health website: http://www.alliance-natural-health.org/.

]]> By: Jenny Ruhl http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79850 Jenny Ruhl Fri, 25 Apr 2008 12:02:12 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79850 Dr. Briffa, Some of the studies provide the supplements, but quite a few others I have seen are retrospective studies where the subjects report on their level of intake of supplements they purchased on their own. The other issue which needs to be considered is when a supplement in food is a different isomer from the one supplemented--which is common, or when it is part of a family of related molecules where supplementing with only one suppresses the uptake of others. It is my understanding that supplementing with gamma tocopherol, for example (Vitamin E) suppresses the uptake of alpha tocopherol. Dr. Davis of the Heart Scan Blog has pointed out that supplementing calcium without adequate vitamin D appears to cause calcium plaque to form in the arteries, but this is speculation. We only know that the calcium supplementation pushed on women for the past decades is giving them higher levels of calcium plaque, probably because the calcium is part of a more complex system. The complexity of how nutrients interact and the poor quality of most nutritional studies (many of which are not reproducible) suggests to me that we all do better getting "supplementation" from the food sources our bodies evolved to use. Dr. Briffa,

Some of the studies provide the supplements, but quite a few others I have seen are retrospective studies where the subjects report on their level of intake of supplements they purchased on their own.

The other issue which needs to be considered is when a supplement in food is a different isomer from the one supplemented–which is common, or when it is part of a family of related molecules where supplementing with only one suppresses the uptake of others.

It is my understanding that supplementing with gamma tocopherol, for example (Vitamin E) suppresses the uptake of alpha tocopherol.

Dr. Davis of the Heart Scan Blog has pointed out that supplementing calcium without adequate vitamin D appears to cause calcium plaque to form in the arteries, but this is speculation. We only know that the calcium supplementation pushed on women for the past decades is giving them higher levels of calcium plaque, probably because the calcium is part of a more complex system.

The complexity of how nutrients interact and the poor quality of most nutritional studies (many of which are not reproducible) suggests to me that we all do better getting “supplementation” from the food sources our bodies evolved to use.

]]> By: Ann Eastman http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79836 Ann Eastman Fri, 25 Apr 2008 09:42:22 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79836 Could you publish a check-list of the vitamin and mineral names that one should be looking for on labels to ensure that ingredients are derived from natural sources? That would be extremely helpful. The labels are a minefield - even for people like me who are not horteculturally challenged! Incidentally, my family and I have been taking vitamin C ever since reading the Linus Pauling studies - about 35 years . Despite all the negative comments from experts saying it does not work to prevent and abort colds and flu; it DEFINIETELY DOES! However, it is effective only but if derived from fruit and vegetable sources -- especially acerola cherries. Could you publish a check-list of the vitamin and mineral names that one should be looking for on labels to ensure that ingredients are derived from natural sources? That would be extremely helpful. The labels are a minefield - even for people like me who are not horteculturally challenged!

Incidentally, my family and I have been taking vitamin C ever since reading the Linus Pauling studies - about 35 years . Despite all the negative comments from experts saying it does not work to prevent and abort colds and flu; it DEFINIETELY DOES! However, it is effective only but if derived from fruit and vegetable sources — especially acerola cherries.

]]> By: Liz http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79825 Liz Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:48:33 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79825 This meta analysis seems to be a case of making a complex topic simple for the sake of headlines (which I suppose I am doing also in this post!). I teach my students that all antioxidants work together – stuffing someone full of vitamins E without ensuring they have enough selenium or glutathione, for example, is not science, although “good science” tells us we can only test one variable at a time. The comment about forms of beta-carotene is also most apt. For example I also tell my students that 17-β-oestradiol is much more oestrogenic than 17-α-oestradiol - the only difference between them is a slight change in orientation of one hydroxyl group but the body responds very differently. So it would be important to test the biological molecules in the right proportions and not synthetic products. Nice comment from Neil! This meta analysis seems to be a case of making a complex topic simple for the sake of headlines (which I suppose I am doing also in this post!).

I teach my students that all antioxidants work together – stuffing someone full of vitamins E without ensuring they have enough selenium or glutathione, for example, is not science, although “good science” tells us we can only test one variable at a time.

The comment about forms of beta-carotene is also most apt. For example I also tell my students that 17-β-oestradiol is much more oestrogenic than 17-α-oestradiol - the only difference between them is a slight change in orientation of one hydroxyl group but the body responds very differently. So it would be important to test the biological molecules in the right proportions and not synthetic products.

Nice comment from Neil!

]]> By: Peter Killingback http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79822 Peter Killingback Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:25:23 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79822 What concerns me is that with the high profile that this study has gained, it will be used by the Government as support for the European Union moves to outlaw ANY higher dose (whatever that means) supplements. It is well known that the pharmaceutical industry wants to eliminate the massive range of supplements available - their markets for very expensive, and often with obscured visibility of untoward side effects, are being challenged. Wouldn't it be interesting to know what organisations financed this work? What concerns me is that with the high profile that this study has gained, it will be used by the Government as support for the European Union moves to outlaw ANY higher dose (whatever that means) supplements. It is well known that the pharmaceutical industry wants to eliminate the massive range of supplements available - their markets for very expensive, and often with obscured visibility of untoward side effects, are being challenged. Wouldn’t it be interesting to know what organisations financed this work?

]]> By: Leigh Turner http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79820 Leigh Turner Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:21:15 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79820 I am a nutritional therapy student and wonder where are our professionals when it comes to standing up and being counted. CAM is constantly attacked and yes we survive it and always will because it works, whether we can explain it or not. However, there is evidence out there to support the use of vitamins and to disclaim the findings of the most recent attack, so why is our counter-claim not being brought to public awareness in a similar way. I just find it odd that no one is prepared to even plant the seeds of doubt for a lot of frightened public. Dont ya just wanna? I am a nutritional therapy student and wonder where are our professionals when it comes to standing up and being counted. CAM is constantly attacked and yes we survive it and always will because it works, whether we can explain it or not. However, there is evidence out there to support the use of vitamins and to disclaim the findings of the most recent attack, so why is our counter-claim not being brought to public awareness in a similar way. I just find it odd that no one is prepared to even plant the seeds of doubt for a lot of frightened public. Dont ya just wanna?

]]> By: Terry http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79816 Terry Fri, 25 Apr 2008 08:03:35 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-79816 Thanks for taking the time to expose this charlatan study for what it is - a shameless piece of medical establishment propaganda. Thanks for taking the time to expose this charlatan study for what it is - a shameless piece of medical establishment propaganda.

]]> By: Dr John Briffa http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-78437 Dr John Briffa Mon, 21 Apr 2008 12:02:57 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-78437 Jenny I'm not sure about this, and not just because your observation re cancer rates in proponents of herb/supplements is anecdotal: the supplements used in these sorts of studies tend to be 'high-quality' and 'pharmaceutical grade' i.e. it's unlikely that they'll have any old ingredients and contaminants in them. Jenny
I’m not sure about this, and not just because your observation re cancer rates in proponents of herb/supplements is anecdotal: the supplements used in these sorts of studies tend to be ‘high-quality’ and ‘pharmaceutical grade’ i.e. it’s unlikely that they’ll have any old ingredients and contaminants in them.

]]> By: Jenny Ruhl http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-78425 Jenny Ruhl Mon, 21 Apr 2008 11:06:42 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-78425 There is another possibility which is worth considering, and it is that because supplements are full of vitamins etc that come from poorly regulated Chinese factories they may be contaminated with toxins from polluted Chinese water and with industrial chemicals used in the manufacturing process. Over the decades I've been observing health, I've noticed a very high incidence of cancer among the people in my community who are most vocal advocates of herbs and supplements. Given how often lab analysis in the U.S. finds that the capsules don't contain what they say they do, but instead contain lead and other contaminants, it is quite possible this is true. Getting nutrients from food (locally grown if possible) is far safer. There is another possibility which is worth considering, and it is that because supplements are full of vitamins etc that come from poorly regulated Chinese factories they may be contaminated with toxins from polluted Chinese water and with industrial chemicals used in the manufacturing process.

Over the decades I’ve been observing health, I’ve noticed a very high incidence of cancer among the people in my community who are most vocal advocates of herbs and supplements.

Given how often lab analysis in the U.S. finds that the capsules don’t contain what they say they do, but instead contain lead and other contaminants, it is quite possible this is true.

Getting nutrients from food (locally grown if possible) is far safer.

]]> By: Neil http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-78386 Neil Mon, 21 Apr 2008 08:39:13 +0000 http://www.drbriffa.com/blog/2008/04/21/what-are-we-to-make-of-the-dire-warnings-about-antioxidant-supplements/#comment-78386 Meta Analysis = Making a strong chain by combining weak links. quoted from Prof John Brignell http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/vocabulary.htm Meta Analysis = Making a strong chain by combining weak links.

quoted from Prof John Brignell

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/vocabulary.htm

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